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This is a bowl that I found at liveauctioneer. It's for sale today. I know what it is. Just curious to find out other people's opinions.
Hi,
I think it is very pretty but I think it looks to be later than Yongzheng.
I have just had a look around and found a couple of bowls that were made and marked Yongzheng but with later decoration - whatever that means exactly I am not sure.
However, I am going to go for the whole thing being later. I find that orange colour rather intimidating and the mark reminds me of that found on later copies.
Having said all that, I am prepared to be wrong but look forward to hearing about it.
Julia
As a new collector I don't know much. In examining some comps from Sothebys I come away feeling that if this is fake it is a pretty good one, like good enough to fool or confuse people like me who aren't in the know. But I also suspect that people who do know will be able to tell pretty easily one way or the other. I'm not there yet, so I will yield to the more experienced members once they weigh in. I will say that there are a few things I noticed which stood out and maybe others can address.
1. Are the twigs/stems too smooth flowing and not angular enough?
2. Is the double circle around the mark too consistent in coloration all around? Usually they fade here and there, right?
3. Is the shading on the pink flower wrong, not enough light to dark contrast, etc.
Maybe all these things are normal on authentic pieces, just things I am wondering about so as to learn either way. Looking forward to reading others thoughts.
@julia Hi Julia, thanks for viewing my post. This is a typical example of medium to high end modern copy. The famille rose flower is painted very well with good enough shading, very attractive. But the iron red flower is not shaded as well as the famille rose flower. In addition, if you pay close attention to the center of the painting, there are just too many branches and it just looks too busy and noisy, which deviates greatly from Emperor Yongzheng's personal taste in arts. Moreover, the paste on the foot rim looks clean, which is good; but the glaze on the underside looks very stiff (no orange peel at all). Furthermore, the details in the colors, especially near the tip of the leaves as well as the calyx of the flowers, indicate that this bowl is a modern copy. The mark is written meticulously well in the format of Yongzheng imperial marks so the bowl is trying very hard to make it look like an imperial piece of Emperor Yongzheng period. However, in my opinion, it is just an imperial-wannabe. Best, Jacob
@johnshoe Hi John, Thanks for your reply. First of all, the stems are not shaded well enough, but the smaller branches and twigs look okay. Second, although the underglaze cobalt blue is not supposed to fade, you are right that the color on the double circle on the underside looks too uniform. It doesn't look like it was brush painted. Third, the shading on the pink flower is actually better than the shading on the iron red (orange) flower. Best, Jacob
It is trying very hard to imitate this:
https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/important-chinese-art-hk0675/lot.3669.html
But it failed in many aspects, it don't think it is a old copy but very likely brand new.
@springmeier Hi, it’s unbelievable. Despite that Sotheby’s had clearly indicated that the bowl was enameled later, that half-authentic bowl was still sold at over 3.6 million HKD in 2016! I guess that the buyer disagreed with Sotheby’s expert?... Anyway, the bowl at LiveAuctioneers was sold at $5,400 today. Plus 29% buyer’s premium and then the insured shipping, the total will be over $7k.
Thanks for the link, springmeier! Comparing these two is very educational.
@julia Hi Julia, thanks for viewing my post. This is a typical example of medium to high end modern copy. The famille rose flower is painted very well with good enough shading, very attractive. But the iron red flower is not shaded as well as the famille rose flower. In addition, if you pay close attention to the center of the painting, there are just too many branches and it just looks too busy and noisy, which deviates greatly from Emperor Yongzheng's personal taste in arts. Moreover, the paste on the foot rim looks clean, which is good; but the glaze on the underside looks very stiff (no orange peel at all). Furthermore, the details in the colors, especially near the tip of the leaves as well as the calyx of the flowers, indicate that this bowl is a modern copy. The mark is written meticulously well in the format of Yongzheng imperial marks so the bowl is trying very hard to make it look like an imperial piece of Emperor Yongzheng period. However, in my opinion, it is just an imperial-wannabe. Best, Jacob
I agree. That was the conclusion I came to, as well. I hesitated about the bowl itself, especially having seen the "later decorated" examples, but I didn't think the mark (including the circles) looked quite right.
It is undoubtedly attractive, but what a lot of money!
Hi all -
It is well known that some Ming and 'High Qing' blanks were retired with new enamelled designs in the Republic period ...
I have seen authentic mark/period Hongzhi and Zhengde period blanks with dragon/cloud and fish/water weed designs and also genuine Yongzheng and Qianlong mark/period blanks with several differing flower/rock and insects designs, all of which had Republic enamelled decoration ...
Stuart
@ming1449 This is all new to me so I find it fascinating to learn about. So, if I understand correctly they made these bowls, then added an underglaze blue mark, all of which is authentic to the period when the bowl was made,so it is mark and period in that sense, but then didn't decorate them until much later, resulting in mark and period bowls with enamels from a later time, which would make it only half authentic, or however you would describe that combo. Interesting indeed! And potentially very confusing.
Hi Ubecha -
Not so unbelievable! I do not know who bought the Sby’s HK 2016 bowl, but it is well know that pieces such as this are acquired by dealers base in China who will then ‘pursued’ a potential buyer that the auction house has made a mistake, the catalogue description is ‘incorrect’ and that the object is indeed a authentic m/p example. The auction price paid then becomes ‘a bargain for such a piece’ a ‘dealer fee/mark up’ is added, and large profit made ...
Such practices have been going on for at least the last two decades ...
Hi Johnshoe -
Attached images a two Hongzhi mark/period dishes in the Gugong, Palace Museum Beijing, with later Republic period enamelled decoration. The Gugong holds a number of such pieces within there collection ...
Such practice are recorded in historical texts/records. Last image is an eye-witness account from the great English pioneering scholar A.D. Brankston (1911-41) whilst he was in China during the 1930’s ...
Stuart
@ming1449 Hi Stuart, Thanks for sharing this information with us. I am shocked and speechless. Best, Jacob
Hi Jacob, Julia Johnshoe and all -
Just for comparison:-
This magnificent Yongzheng m/p large dish, D.50.2 cm, shows stunning detail and beautiful enamelling achieved during this period ...
I shall let you make your on comparisons to the bowl on LiveAuctioneers Jacob posted ...
Provenance:-
Christie’s London, 5th April 1976, Lot 97.
Su Zhu An Coll, Japan.
Sotheby’s HK, 31st October 1995, Lot 329.
Meiyintang Coll, last sold Sotheby’s HK, 5th October 2011, Lot 22 for HK$49,950,000 ...
Stuart
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