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There is a large famille verte vase currently up for auction on eBay which on first glance struck me as rather lovely. See eBay link:
I was thinking of bidding on the vase. As you can see, the seller describes it as Qing period either 18th or 19th century. I would appreciate forum members' opinion on this vase. The concerns I have are as follows:
1. The vase is clearly trying to look like a Kangxi rouleau vase with three Gods (sanxing) and it partially succeeds but perhaps it is trying too hard?
2. The most alarming aspect of the vase, however, is the glazed area around the mouth. It looks extremely new. Most vases of this type, if 19th century (or even 18th century), would have some glaze impurities and production flaws (such as contraction spots, misfired areas, or kiln dust). Plus 100+ years of wear as a vase should, in my opinion, have resulted in a smoother, less glaringly shiny surface patina and perhaps some irregularities in the foot.
I like the vase, but wonder whether it is truly 18th or 19th century and would be grateful for the opinions of others here who have far more expertise than I do! Would you recommend bidding on this vase?
Errol
I agree the mouth looks suspiciously white and untouched , maybe that's just the photo (over-exposed) or maybe it's been repaired. The base and footrim look late C19th to me . Also the decoration style looks more formal and less fluid than on C18th examples, with fussier and more geometric border effects.
I don't think you see pinholes and other firing faults on the base of kangxi or qianlong vases of this size (?) and the footrim has that typical C19th colour , whereas Kangxi /qianlong footrim would be whiter and denser, I believe.
a quick search on 'famille verte vase' on ebay didn't show the vase , could you post the link ? thx
tam
Hello Tam:
Thanks for your comments. The link was in my original message but I'm repeating it here for you. eBay link
You seem to share my ambivalence about this vase. I rather like it, but it just does not seem to fit into any particular reign or period. It is, I think, the mixture of features from different reigns that makes the vase suspect although my first impression like yours was that it is a 19th century vase posing as a Kangxi item. I'd love to know what Alan and Peter think about it!
Errol
The faces of the three men, especially the eyes, don’t look Kangxi. In fact they look rather appalling. Might be Kangxi revival or even a good modern copy.
Birgit
Dear Errol,
Shinigami and Tam are correct, late 19th century. The pictures of the base/foot alone are enough for excluding it of being Kangxi without doubts.
The style of the painting too, you can be sure that it is not Kangxi.
I have already seen other examples with even better quality, especially regarding the foot. They are nice anyway.
Giovanni
Probably 20th century. Not sure if really shou Lou or not. Normally he appears with a deer from memory.
Personally I would not look at something like this given the substandard quality.
Mark
I wonder if the colour has been adjusted? I have a broken 19th c vase of this type (it came with a plate I wanted) and it isn't as white as this and the red on mine is different. Also the blue of the main characters robe looks slightly strange.
Is there a chance that this is a copy as Shinigami suggested? The faces (boy compared to man) look like they are different styles and lots of these 19th c vases use dots in the decoration, there don't appear to be any here. Here are some from Christies, with dots. ?
https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-pair-of-famille-verte-rouleau-vases-5611965-details.aspx
Of course, none of this is anything other my musings. But I do agree, not Kangxi.
Julia
I agree , Julia, the painting method is different on the Christies pair, compared to this vase, and the enamel colours are vastly different , this one looks washed out and very weak , but maybe that is poor photography here (or enhanced images by christies?).
Perhaps there were different styles of painting over time, and the Christies pair were mid- C19th , and this one is early C20th . I really don't know but I am leaning towards thinking this is C20th (early or late?). The faces here , I also think , lack expression and life.
tam
Dear Errol,
On balance, I think that this vase is late nineteenth century. Shall we say c. 1900 for the sake of argument? It is certainly not Kangxi, as others have also noted. Hence you can forget the '18th century' bit of its original description.
Of course, there have been a number of modern fake Kangxi famille verte pieces entering the market in the last year or two, and buyers need to be aware of them. Sometimes, inexperienced dealers can be taken in, and offer in all innocence items as Kangxi that are not, but which, for lack of sufficient acquaintance, those dealers believe to be authentic.
Best wishes,
Alan
Modern.
Of course, there have been a number of modern fake Kangxi famille verte pieces entering the market in the last year or two, and buyers need to be aware of them.
100%
Dear Alan, Julia and others:
I'm very grateful for your responses. The latter show the value of a forum such as this and Peter should get a lot of credit for setting it up. We all know that the world of Chinese art is very perilous. One can easily spend a great deal of money on items that are virtually worthless especially with collectors like myself who lack the expertise that is really essential for true collectors.
Regarding this particular vase, I think we can reach the following consensus, but please let me know if you disagree:
1. The vase is definitely not 18th century or Kangxi;
2. It is possibly a 20th century vase maybe Guangxu as Alan suggests;
3. It is possibly a contemporary copy as suggested by the shiny white patina and the immaculate rim and lack of some of the usual imperfections that age brings with it. As Alan points out this is not, if true, a negative reflection on the probity of the seller because with increased world-wide demand better and better copies of antique porcelains are being produced in China and even good sellers can fall into these traps;
4. Most of you find the vase "ugly" and I agree that it has a washed-out appearance.
The bottom line though is that thanks to you all I will not even think of bidding on this vase. However, it has been a teaching moment for me and this whole process is exceedingly useful even if only from an educational point of view.
Regards,
Errol
For those who remember this discussion, the vase sold at auction for about $1,625. So someone clearly thought it was a Guangxu vase as did some of the participants in this thread. I doubt the vase was worth that much, but everyone is entitled to his/her personal taste and opinion!
Errol
Hi All:
Some of you might remember this vase. SEE LINK It sold at an eBay auction about four months ago for about $1,625.
It is now back on auction on eBay described as a famille verte 18th to 19th century vase. The buyer presumably did not pay. Peter highlighted it in his weekly video last Friday and thought it was a good quality 19th century vase. I think many here thought it might be a modern replica in this thread because partly of the immaculate nature of the rim and the interior of the neck. Anyway it is now up to about $3,000 in bids about nine hours prior to the end of the auction. I bet we will see it back again. That is too high a price for a vase of doubtful age and period.
Regards,
Errol
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