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Could this be 1000 ...
 
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Could this be 1000 year old Ding, White Stoneware, Qingbai ???

 
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
Topic starter 18/09/2021 10:00 pm  

I feel like this might be something good. It appears to have a kintsugi repair to the rim where a hairline exists. I've been researching and I'm guessing it is likely white stoneware, and perhaps Tang or Song, but it also resembles some Qingbai, Ding, Junyao, and celadon pieces I have been looking at, so I'm not at all sure, and I have no firsthand experience with any of these so I'm pretty clueless with this one. I haven't found a match for the form but I suppose I could refer to it as a short necked bottle vase. It's 4 inches tall and 2.25 wide at the foot. It's fairly heavy for it's size. At any rate, I'm looking forward to hearing others thoughts. Cheers!  John

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This topic was modified 4 years ago by johnshoe

   
Julia and Sharon P reacted
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
18/09/2021 11:07 pm  

It looks very old, but that kiln grit is not a good sign for Song wares. Ming maybe.


   
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clayandbrush
 clayandbrush
(@clayandbrush)
Famed Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1611
19/09/2021 3:26 am  

A strange one. The glaze looks Shufu to me, but it could also be qingbai.

BUT, in either case, I have never seen a base in those conditions on a Song item.

Then, I don't know what to think.

Giovanni

 


   
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 Brettm
(@brettm)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1197
19/09/2021 7:10 am  

Hello John,

The top rim shape looks vaguely Japanese to my eye from the photos. In the photo close up showing the repair the top rim looks a little lop sided to the body almost like a pouring lip. Although in the other photo's the top rim looks symmetrical. The base however is much more Chinese and I would suggest South China as it's place of origin made for export to other regions in S E Asia. There are hundreds of kiln sites all over south China that produced wares for local domestic use and for export to the regions surrounding China. The most widely know are the kilns of the Shiwan region. The Shiwan kilns produce wares in a more stoneware type body from Tang times in a variety of famous glaze's similar to the highly collectable glazes produced in the more well known and desirable kilns further to the north in China. Sometime in the early to mid 20th c the Shiwan kilns started to produce wares in a much more re fined and smoother body that may suggest the item predates this change. Based on your photo's I would suggest you include the Shiwan kilns in your research.

Cheers

Michael


   
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
Topic starter 19/09/2021 9:01 am  

So, I cannot speak to the kiln grit issue because I am not aware of the pre Ming history. It seems like it is being suggested that kiln grit did not exist pre Ming. Is that what is being suggested or am I misunderstanding? As far as a visual reference for what is leading me to the associations with white stoneware, qingbai, ding, here is a link to an auction with many of those examples: https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/2008/masterpieces-of-chinese-precious-metalwork-early-gold-and-silver-early-chinese-white-green-and-black-wares-l08211.html?locale=en&p=17

Unfortunately they didn't show any bases, although some of the views are suggestive that some roughness may have been present. 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
19/09/2021 9:44 am  

@johnshoe I think it has to do with the quantity of grit as well as the attention given to the foot of Song wares that suggest it’s not Sing.

But John, as I said in my own post on a Song - like vase I just bought… what the heck do I know?

Answer - practically nothing.

I think your piece needs to be studied, and nothing ruled out.

It looks very old.


   
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
Topic starter 19/09/2021 9:55 am  

@greeno107 I think Xin knows a lot about pre Ming stuff, so maybe he will chime in. I will probably ask Peter what he thinks of it as well. I would like to learn more about the bases of pre Ming wares, so let me know if you find any good resources on that. Meanwhile I'll be researching....


   
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4504
19/09/2021 11:38 am  

@johnshoe Warring states? I only remember that was a kiln grit hay day. The repair suggests it may have spent time in Japan, too bad they didnot make a nice box for it with all the attributes.


   
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4504
19/09/2021 11:58 am  

P.S. Never mind, maybe the Opium wars, Boxer Rebellion.


   
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4504
19/09/2021 12:14 pm  

P.P.S. Sorry for all these but by the time you leave to investigate something and go back, it is too late to edit, could it be a shipwreck piece from Southeast Asia?


   
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
Topic starter 19/09/2021 1:58 pm  

@sharonp jeez, make up your mind would ya! 🤣 

This post was modified 4 years ago by johnshoe

   
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Xin_Wyssemaria
 Xin_Wyssemaria
(@xin_fawis)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1328
19/09/2021 2:14 pm  
Posted by: @johnshoe

I feel like this might be something good. It appears to have a kintsugi repair to the rim where a hairline exists. I've been researching and I'm guessing it is likely white stoneware, and perhaps Tang or Song, but it also resembles some Qingbai, Ding, Junyao, and celadon pieces I have been looking at, so I'm not at all sure, and I have no firsthand experience with any of these so I'm pretty clueless with this one. I haven't found a match for the form but I suppose I could refer to it as a short necked bottle vase. It's 4 inches tall and 2.25 wide at the foot. It's fairly heavy for it's size. At any rate, I'm looking forward to hearing others thoughts. Cheers!  John

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It's a Korean Joseon white porcelain bottle. According to the Kintsugi repair this one could be owned by a Japanese collector.

Xin

 

www.Wyssemaria-Art.com
[email protected]
Instagram: @wyssemaria_art


   
Julia, Short Dong, William Huvar and 2 people reacted
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
Topic starter 19/09/2021 2:19 pm  

Thanks Xin. Given the length of the Joseon dynasty do you have a sense of what century? Also what would you refer to this form as, and is it a common type or less usual? Thanks!


   
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Xin_Wyssemaria
 Xin_Wyssemaria
(@xin_fawis)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1328
19/09/2021 2:49 pm  

Joseon dynasty 18th century, common oil bottle. This mouth/top rim is very characteristic for Korean wares at Joseon period. Beloved by Japanese collectors.

www.Wyssemaria-Art.com
[email protected]
Instagram: @wyssemaria_art


   
Brettm, Julia, Adams Asian Art and 7 people reacted
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Luís Pereira
 Luís Pereira
(@lep)
Prominent Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 422
19/09/2021 3:20 pm  

👍


   
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