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Age of Kraak dish 15.2 cm
What are your thoughts on this please? For me the negatives are… No porcelain flaws, seems too heavy for the size (2.7 cm tall and 15.2 cm wide), and condition is too good
. Positives are… hand painted, some grit around foot, chatter marks easy to see but hard to photograph.
Not genuine 16/17th century Chinese kraak ware ...
Attempting to copy Japanese style kraak pieces, but the overall painting looks very stiff/placed, the cobalt tone rather gray/blackish and glaze slightly creamy/white, although this may be the images/lighting?! ...
Perhaps try taking some better images outside in natural light ...
I think it is either Japanese or fake. I particularly don't like the paste, or the very flat feeling of the glaze, but perhaps a shot in bright sunlight would help. If Japanese I wouldn't expect the grit like that, and the paste should be quite white. There are however examples from Kyoto that date to the early 19th century but still have a Kyoyaki paste so more creamy/grey sandy texture, having had a few, I can say they seemed lighter than the originals which are quite light to begin with. this just doesn't feel right
Here are a few that I currently have in stock/ in my collection.
Note the cobalt and the clean paste, even with the grit, pure paste. Also very loosely decorated, except for the one from my collection which is a stand out in terms of quality, the neatly drawn Wanli bird one on the right side of the pic of the four.. The larger marked one is a tinge grey, and the foot looks less pure, but I believe it was misfired, maybe got too hot was my thought.
Hi Jeremy -
And with apologies, we seemed posted simultaneously!!😉 😆 ...
Thank you Stuart and Jeremy. I will try to add a closeup of the cricket and washed foot rim and trying for the 1.5 cm long chatter marks, but they’re tough to photograph. By the way, my 6” plate weighs 7.8 oz.
@ming1449 are the new pictures any better? On one of the first pictures I took, did you see the "pool" of glaze (greenish?) on the base center... for color of glaze? For me, I've not seen Japanese grit like this on the base. Also, now you can hardly see the grit, but you can feel it and the paste looks much whiter with a cleaning. If you don't mind me asking, are your 6" original Kraak plates close to 7.8 ounces or are they much lighter? And, they faked the chatter marks too? Yikes! When I first picked it up I felt it was definitely too nice to be 300 years old. And I also Knew that 90% or so of Kraak plates had way more grit and more glazing/pottery flaws. But, I bought it for not much to learn more.
@jbeer2121 I need to work on my vision. I'm not too good at this yet. I actually thought my glaze was not flat enough. I cleaned the foot. What do you think of the paste now? I do agree that it just doesn't seem right. Are any of yours 6" wide? Do they weigh much less than 7.8 ounces? Would you be willing to look at my thoughts to Stuart, as well? Anyway, thanks to you and Stuart (and the other knowledgable ones) for helping everyone learn. Kind of you.
Here is an outside photo in the sun.
Another sign of genuine kraak plates: fritting of the rim. (Did someone already mention this?) The rim frits continue through the end of the Kangxi reign, if I remember correctly. By the mid 18th century they had fixed the issue.
Here is a screen shot of a 17th c. Chinese kraak plate on Wikipedia:
@steve thanks. I did read that. However, I was under the impression it almost always happened… like 95% of the time. So that would still be thousands of pieces made that it didn’t happen. Is that wrong? I know, chances are way down of finding a non fritted piece. Or did it always happen?
Thank you for the additional images, most helpful ...
Note the differences in painting style, motif detailing and cobalt tone/shading between your dish and the piece Jeremy @jbeer2121 posted with similar, but not identical, central/side decoration, sixth image ...
Concur with Jeremy, it could be Japanese (which is not really my area) or its a modern copy of such ...
I'll look through my library/database over the next few days and post anything comparable found ...
@centralpapottery Yes, there may be a few examples that don't have fritting, but they should have the characteristically fragile edge and thin wall.
Another sign of age on 17th c. porcelain, especially plates, are tiny, random scratches especially in the center.
@steve thanks again. Would you happen to have a 6" Kraak plate? Was wondering how much a real one weighs. I knew a definite major problem with mine was no flaws other than a 1 cm area directly below the hind part of the cricket where the blue broke through the glaze.
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