one first thing you need to know is it hand made or machine made. My eyes are not as good as they used to be but to me it looks hand done. Plus they left an old wire hanger and a newer wire when they refrained it I have some old painting and early prints with the same wire from early twenty century. The writing on it says eight immortals here is some sites that might help John S.

https://www.suembroidery.com/chinese-silk-hand-embroidery-vs-machine-embroidery

https://resources.made-in-china.com/article/culture-life/eQnEaFpxBmHh/Sichuan-Embroidery/

I agree that my embroidery looks very similar in style to the kittens from the 80s there.

The red sichuan embroidery seal looks very different however... both in those examples posted above and the example linked to from ebay below.

The only last few things I can think of that might set mine apart are:

1) This was a 25th anniversary present... from a person who lives in a town mostly filled with millionaires. I don't know what a brand new embroidery made yesterday would cost in the 1980s, but I have a feeling it would be a paltry/insulting sum for a 25th anniversary present? Perhaps they got ripped off by some shady dealer, however.

2) I found a similar kitten embroidery on ebay that claims it's from sichuan in 1984, see https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/315209648256?itmprp=cksum%3A3152096482562ad60b5444614aac8f4be8bfbe14c8de%7Cenc%3AAQAJAAAA8NRzVC2W1YTkflpzYTzZo05BG1ytOezFlp00x4LMT8StlG7jxDjr8T7OVH3CBj30kN2oVt3ff8PE%252F0Rw2RhQ5Muo3du%252BeT3cRoVvjIkPiodG5oQl6Igye88MgTpbE17Y9hKztUmB033jAtK8aXCbOcl51Ou7bBAUq8Iry2YHW8%252FuS0s05hw1FeKipFtBYMWWlZKAlS%252BvJhcBRBbGAGaGajC3YlU2XPzvBy%252BuLjuWIg62%252FsVGthXSHJVMsTQIUkoeGphzn7KIIN%252B7hqV0FmbWnaGiRg9H29ooqmEKsCkdWShEboKnlwjkBxm4JtT4FGFbMA%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A4429486&itmmeta=01HV08DXJVVG7ZJJG1QMGAW298 ... The homogeneous nature of the canvas seems much different in that example than in mine. Mine has various imperfectly white threads weaved directly into the canvas backing.

3) As to "I think these are more modern threads, they haven't faded at all or run in the water. " ... I know nothing of chinese silk dying but I would assume that water would be ineffective in making the dyes run? Did the emporers never wash their clothes? Or did they just only ever wear new clothing like princess Diana? :P

Are there any good books or resources on the matter?

Not saying I don't believe your expertise!

I truly appreciate it!

I also am in the process of buying my first house and am thus in dire need of being extremely hopeful that this is older than you think it is LOL :P

I am also simply really curious to learn as much as I can :)

I tried looking for some of peter's videos on textiles and could only find this one titled "Chinese Silk, Fine Robes of the ming and qing dynasty and who wore them" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bxOPCLl1go

I appreciate your thinking that the 80s was a great decade lol... so I have heard! Unfortunately I do not remember much of it :P

Thanks again =D

The kitties are much larger actual embroidery work. I also have two 100 children playing embroideries, which I purchased in Beijing in 1992, they are eighties work as well on a dark green silk background, in the late eighties, "jewel tones," were the rage. You were born in a great decade. 😀 

Here are the two closer to the age of your piece in my opinion, general opinion on forum was eighties or there about.

Best, Sharon

It was four years ago, but I found member Tam's reply to help identify my Republic period embroidery,  "Yes, I think this dates to the 20s or 30s, and looks to have been embroidered on a woven or damask silk background. The pink silk in some of the clothes and flowers was a chemical (non-natural) dye, which was introduced into China in the 1870s."

It is my opinion that your piece more resembles my embroideries from the last quarter of the 20th century, rather than the first quarter, but by all means continue your quest, bonne chance.

I would be interested to see the reverse if you remove it. 😊 

The history of pink dyes in China is fascinating and goes back centuries. The development and use of dyes in ancient civilizations were closely linked to the availability of natural resources, and China, with its rich history and biodiversity, had access to a wide range of materials for dyeing fabrics.

Pink dyes, in particular, could be produced from several sources. One of the earliest methods to obtain a pink hue was through the use of plant-based dyes. For example, the madder plant (Rubia tinctorum), which was widely used across the ancient world, including China, could produce a range of colors from pink to deep red, depending on the dyeing process and the mordants used. Madder has been used for textile dyeing in China for thousands of years, with evidence of its use dating back to at least the Han dynasty (206 BCE – 220 CE).

Another source of pink dye in ancient China was the use of insects. The cochineal insect, native to the Americas, produces carminic acid, which can be processed into a vibrant red dye. However, this source of pink and red dyes would not have been available in China until after contact with the Americas was established in the 16th century, following the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire. Before the introduction of cochineal, similar insect-based dyes, like those from the Kermes vermilio (a type of scale insect found in the Mediterranean region), could have found their way to China through the Silk Road, but their impact and usage would be less prevalent compared to plant-based dyes.

The precise hue and intensity of the pink color obtained through these natural dyes would vary based on several factors, including the specific materials used, the fabric being dyed, the local water composition, and the dyeing techniques employed. The development of synthetic dyes in the 19th century greatly expanded the range of available colors, including pinks, making them more vivid, durable, and cheaper to produce.

To summarize, while specific dates are hard to pin down due to the nature of archaeological evidence and historical records, it's clear that methods to produce pink dyes from natural sources have been known and used in China for centuries, certainly by the Han dynasty and possibly earlier, through the use of plant-based dyes and, to a lesser extent, insect-based dyes.

As for the water damage... It looks like that occurred before it was framed as there is no discoloration whatsoever to the thin cheap cardboard backing it is framed on.

Interesting point about pink's not existing in antiquity... Isn't pink just a lighter red? Like a white thread with less red dye... Wouldn't that always be pink?

See screenshots attached with some color theory... Same red with half the saturation makes pink at least I think that's how it works.

 Perhaps it was red dyes that were not common in antiquity?

As for the cheap frame... If you read the inscription on the back... Whoever framed it apparently wasn't even sure if it was Chinese or Japanese... Or seemingly new anything about the depictions in the embroidery.

Burlington Ontario is a very wealthy area.

So I'm assuming that they purchased it perhaps from a less knowledgeable antique dealer in the area who themselves wasn't even sure if it was Chinese or Japanese... Unless perhaps these embroideries were very commonly made available for sale in Canada in the 1980s? I wasn't alive then so I would have no idea :-)

Surely if they purchased it in Asia they would know if it was Chinese or Japanese you would think?

Thanks again :-) have a great night Sharon