34 days sotheby's submission - Help Identify This

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

JIAWEI HE — Tue, 14 Nov 2023 01:17:11 +0000

hi, long time no see~

the jiajing style bowl is simply new.

THANKS!

Hello guys, long time no see, last month I sent a jiajing blue and white bowl to sothebys for submission, 34 days are gone and still no reply, I am wondering what is going on, are they hesitated to tell if it is real or not, cause I did reach to them two times on their support, they told me they told the specialist concerned with my item, and I don't hear back, I sent another Qianlong Famille rose platter, and still nothing, usually they reply on me in a day to a week, this is weird:

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here are the pictures of the items, both are from two different antique dealers in the USA.

1- the jiajing bowl:

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2-the Famille rose platter:

someone who has quite good experience in Chinese antiques told me these are Excellent copies, but I am not sure. I'll appreciate any help from you guys:

@jeremy @jiawei-he @bartholin @julia @shinigami @lep @johnshoe @ronm @sharonp @short-dong @greeno107 @jbeer2121 @brettm @john-steward @avatar @shine @erroll
@clayandbrush @tam18 @xin_fawis @plcombs @watership @nicdan @ming1449 @gfhandel @lotusblack @xin_fawis

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Sadoqyo — Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:21:47 +0000

Thank you @short-dong for your long and detailed answer, I learn a lot from you

Thanks to @lotusblack @jg1133 @avatar @kaolin @ming1449 @julia @ubecha for your contribution, you all are amazing! and we together complete each other weaknesses :)

for now, I'll forget about these pieces, I'll let you know once I found something interesting and worth your time

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Ubecha — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 21:08:47 +0000

@sadoq95 LOL I guess I am just a boring guy who doesn’t have better things to do in my life. Well, I have to admit that I don’t know much about porcelains of Yuan or earlier. But I heard that nowadays Jun ware copies are made in such a good quality that major auction houses only accept items with prominent provenance. In other words, even experts cannot easily tell the difference. Best

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Sadoqyo — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:56:22 +0000

@ubecha well, you have knowledge that I never heard of, who are you? how can I become more knowledgeable as you do? I have a gift to find all sorts of pieces but I am always stuck in getting the final decision about them. here is an example of a supposedly Junyao narcissus bowl similar to one sold on Sothebys https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2017/chinese-art-from-two-american-private-collections-hk0767/lot.1107.html

but again I'm not sure, it's from a different dealer and it has the earthworm trails effect, which as I read very difficult to replicate:

55549 55551 55550 55552 55553 55554 55555

here is other examples from christies: 1, 2, 3

as I don't have books or reading materials to base my research on, I only compare what I found with what previously sold in auction houses and ask here if I'm stuck on something

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Ubecha — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:28:47 +0000

In addition, the last character in the Jiajing mark was not written correctly, which would be a very rare mistake that shouldn’t happen on an imperial piece. Also, the paste on the foot rim doesn’t look right either. It’s hard to emulate the pale pink tone in the paste of authentic Ming porcelain, even nowadays

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Ubecha — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:11:21 +0000

It’s relatively easier to tell that the dish is a modern copy or at least a much later copy. The shape, the turquoise green glaze on the underside, the mark, etc. It has nothing to do with Qianlong period. I would like to talk a little bit more about the blue and white bowl. First, Ming glaze is supposed to look creamy and murky, which is not shown at all in this example. Second, the excessive amount of flea-bites along the mouth rim is a typical problem for porcelains in transitional period (from Chongzhen to early Kangxi) instead of Jiajing. When a later problem from transitional period comes to an earlier piece, we all know what the answer is. Third, the painting on a Ming porcelain should look childish yet vivid and interesting at the same time. Usually Sotheby’s would respond quickly to any valuable and authentic pieces. No response from them after a long waiting should be taken as a response. If I were you, I wouldn’t buy anything from the same dealer in the future. Best

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Sadoqyo — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 19:36:27 +0000

@kaolin well that's what I am thinking, besides the old lady that owns this bowl told me that it was evaluated from Bonham's auction house as a mark and period bowl and they gave it a value of 2500$, but I forgot to ask here when this evaluation took place, but according to the value they gave her I think it was appraised in the early 2000s, perhaps there is different rendering levels in the jiajing period so maybe @ming1449 didn't get it right on this one, I'm not saying this story of evaluation is 100% real or no, but it could really happen, and this woman has no other mark and period pieces, as dishonest dealers usually have a load of proclaimed mark and period pieces.

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

avatar — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 15:02:09 +0000

Actually ming1449 said the bowl is not period and a much later copy while I said it looks authentic ...

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Kaolin — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:24:19 +0000

Hi Ibrahim

Here is a similar B&W bowl to yours for comparison that was deemed authentic by members with considerable knowledge on anther forum.

Images should help illustrate points made by @ming1449 above.

Kaolin

55523

55524

55525

RE: 34 days sotheby's submission

Julia — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:29:27 +0000

Hi Ibrahim, nice to see you back.

It isn't absolutely true about space between flowers typically being found on later pieces, I will post a link below. However, I agree, not Qianlong, as much as anything the flowers are painted incorrectly. It could be a more recent example with an apocryphal mark but I am bothered by the way the blue base goes onto the outer edge of the foot. I have not seen that before. There seems no wear either.

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2017/05/23/35315682.html